Psychedelia.dk

Astral: Undskyld min sarkasme tidligere. Dette emne har været oppe og vende på samtlige seriøse svampeboards og teori er en ting - praksis en helt anden. Jeg ville foreslå du selv går igang med det enorme arbejde. Bestil du dig nogen spore http://www.fsre.org og lav de tankeeksperimenter selv.

Du kunne jo skrive en bog om dine eksperimenter og blive berømt - jeg er ham der står i køen ved boghandleren for at få din autograf i mit eksemplar.

Go vind!

Eftersom LSD er et ret komplekst organisk molekyle, er positionerne højst sandsynligt placeret ret anderledes end på egentlige tryptaminer, og 4-positionen er højst sandsynligt et helt andet sted end hvor du lige tror den ville sidde.
Jeg aner ikke hvor man tæller fra, og hvilken retning, og jeg det er for tidligt om morgenen til at jeg gider at finde ud af det, men jeg tror det er ønsketænkning at svampenes enzymer gider at beskæftige sig med andet end (evt. substituerede) tryptaminer - og med tryptaminer mener jeg 3-(2-aminoethyl)-indoler - ikke komplekse organiske forbindelser hvor denne struktur indgår!

Yep it called a suspension medium. I don't know how much leeway the enzymes would give you (by the time you get to DiPT/iprocin, the alkyl groups may be too big for the tryptamine-4-hydroxylase to work well (or possibly at all).

The best candidate for this would most probably be MiPT to miprocin - going from a material without anything spectacular about it to the most potent 4-OH tryptamine


By excluding certain nutrients, and introducing replacement synthetic ones, it is possible to get a suspension culture of ergot to synthesise LSD.
I used to have a copy of the paper, but is nowhere to be seen at present - if anyone has a link/copy, I'd be grateful



In other words if I added DMT to a magic mushroom water extraction would the DMT be converted to 4-HO-DMT if aggitated long enough?



It's a bit more complex than that, though...

Ja, men der er jo heller ikke tale om om psilocybin-svampen, men om meldrøje-svampen!

Jeg holder nu stadig på at LSD en dag bliver fundet som et naturligt alkaloid... Seneste research (kan desværre ikke huske kilden) har påvist naturlige forekomster af Lyserg-Syre-Ethylamid (LSD der mangler én enkelt ethyl-gruppe) i vistnok visse Ipomoea-arter.

This thread is full of wild speculation and guesses. There is no need, after all a whole lot of information can be accessed on the internet by anoyne, and even more information can be found in university libraries. Why speculate on things that have been looked into? Here is the abstract of the reference behind what Shulgin wrote in TIHKAL:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract:

J. Basic Microbiol. 1989;29(6):347-52.
Biotransformation of tryptamine derivatives in mycelial cultures of Psilocybe.
Gartz J.
Institut fur Biotechnologie der AdW, Leipzig.

Mycelial cultures of Psilocybe cubensis capable of forming psilocybin and psilocin de novo display a high capacity for hydroxylation of tryptamine derivatives at the 4-position. A specific biotransformation of added synthetic N,N-diethyl-tryptamine was found. Thus high amounts of 4-hydroxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine (up to 3.3%) and a minor quantity of 4-phosphoryloxy-N,N-diethyltryptamine (0.01-0.8%) were isolated from fruiting bodies of Psilocybe cubensis in corresponding experiments. This is the first example of a directed biosynthesis of tryptamine substances by fungi. An effective biotransformation of N-methyltryptamine was also demonstrated with surface cultures of Psilocybe semilanceata. Baeocystin, a possible natural precursor of psilocybin, was detected and quantified in the biomasses. No alkaloids could be found in the culture medium.


Now, what does it mean if there is no alkaloids found in the culture medium, if alkaloids were added there in the first place considering that high amounts of 4-OH-DET were produced? According to the paper the culture Gartz used was a cow dung/rice grain (2:1) mixture with dry weight of 13.5 g suspended into double amount of 0.25 mM solution of N,N-diethylamine hydrochloride, which means that there was about 1.7 grams of DET.HCl dissolved in 27 mL of water. The percentages of alkaloids per dry weight isolated from five consecutive flushes were: 1. 2.5 % 4-OH-DET, 0 % 4-phosphoryloxy-DET; 2. 0.2 %, 0.8 %; 3. 3.1 %, 0.01 %; 4. 3.3 %, 0 %; 5. 2.1 %, 0.02 %. Also, another abstract on the subject:

Planta Medica, vol. 55, p. 249-250 (1989)
Biotransformation of Tryptamine in Fruiting Mycelia of Psilocybe cubensis
Jochen Gartz

Mycelial cultures of Psilocybe cubensis, with the ability to form psilocybin and psilocin de-novo, also hydroxylated and methylated fed tryptamine to give psilocin in up to 3.3 % dry mass of the obtained fruit bodies. By using HPLC and TLC, it was found that these mushrooms contain only a small amount of psilocybin (0.01-0.2 % dry mass). The values of psilocin are the highest described in any mushrooms.


The following patents (http://www.espacenet.com) by mr. Gartz are also interesting and related on the subject, even though they are in german. Other patents by Herr Gartz might be worth checking out too.
DD265636, DD273449, DD287053

Also, the following reference is interesting indeed, although it is apparent the information it contains cannot be applied directly to mycelial cultures. If it was, the poor uptake and incorporation of DMT might be considered contradictory to the results Gartz obtained, as DMT and DET are chemically quite close to each other: Biosynthesis of Psilocybin Part II. Incorporation of Labeled Tryptamine Derivatives; Agurell, S. and Eilsson, L.; Acta Chemica Scandinavica, vol. 22, p. 1210 (1968):
https://www.rhodium.ws/pdf/psilocybin.b ... esis-2.pdf


Now mister theshiftingwalls, after giving supporting arguments on certain conjectures you made, there are a few things I must say: claiming that all of the DPT added to the substrate would be converted to 4-OH-DPT is, even still, a claim without proof as there are no measurements to back it up. You also seem to be sure of a lot of things you have no proof of. Yet, it is obvious you aren't an expert nor have you studied the subject thoroughly. Did you know that 4-OH-DPT is quite as hard to synthesize in the lab as psilocin? Every magic mushroom grower is making psychedelics that are hard to synthesize.

And please could you stop using that silly PARANOIA-picture on the signature of your posts? It made reading this whole thread very annoying, and I'm sure you want people to read this thread.

I also want to add a little disclaimer: mycology isn't my main interest and I am no expert in it either. I just happen to like information and science.


Post Extras:
doktor_alternate
card-carrying Amateur Mycologists Anonymous member




Reged: 08/24/03
Posts: 119
Loc: vancouver
Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: chris_kelvin]
#1979670 - 10/04/03 06:55 PM

look mr.disclaimer: dont get your panties in a knot about the relatively unstudied population here. if you wanna go talk drug chemistry, there are lots on the-hive.ws on your level. let these guys have fun with their pictures and that because the main issue here is:
this is a website for mushroom farmers, not chemistry geniuses. the contents of this post HAVE been discussed at large many a time in the past (http://www.the-hive.ws -> triptamine chemistry) and if you think you have something to contribute, by all means, go flash your well-worn refrences around there.
this thread is not supposed to be a detailed discussion, it is simply a group of ameture science kids playing 'lets make trippy mushrooms!'

however: DPT HCl has never been analysed for its 4-hydroxylating capacity to my knowledge (now if youve got a refrence for THAT, then cool, but spouting that same old DET ref is not productive).

now, mr.soundmind: when you go about conducting your experiment, be sure to write EVERYTHING down. (ex: on 10/4/03, batch 1(jars 1-6) was innoculated with 1.5mL spore solution A in the oven top flow hood.
some wetness was noted around the hole of jar 4 after removal of the syringe. possible contamination source? will keep note.) ya know? then post your running experiment here so that we can give feedback while it goes down.
cool?


Post Extras:
chris_kelvin





Reged: 10/04/03
Posts: 7

Re: Growing high content 4-HO-DPT/4-HO-DMT mushrooms. [Re: doktor_alternate]
#1980188 - 10/04/03 11:12 PM

I agree, it is just a pity to see misinformation grow. I'm well aware of the Hive and I'm afraid it is a better place to discuss syntheses than applied mycology. Sorry for the arrogant post, cultural differences got the best of me.

As a later addition to this message, I would also like to share the requested reference on the biotransformation of DPT to 4-OH-DPT. It was an east-german patent by Jochen Gartz I happened to miss at first. Here is the english abstract.

Manufacture of tryptophan derivatives with higher fungi
Gartz, Jochen
Akademie der Wissenschaften der DDR
Patent DD278600 (1990)

By culturing Psilocybe, Panaeolus, Inocybe, Conocybe, and Pluteus on solid media containing 0.1-2% 3-(2-dialkylaminoethyl)-indole, 3-(2-dialkylaminoethyl)-4-hydroxyindoles can be prepared in high yield with little synthesis of other indole compounds. P. cubensis was cultured on a cow manure-straw-water mixture containing 3-(2-dipropylaminoethyl)-indole.HCl. From 18 g mycelium, 420 mg 3-(2-dipropylaminoethyl)-4-hydroxyindole was isolated. No other indoles were detectable in the mycelium.


3-(2-dipropylaminoethyl)indole.HCl is DPT.HCl and 3-(2-dipropylaminoethyl)-4-hydroxyindole is 4-OH-DPT. On the patent they add 0.5 grams of DPT.HCl on the substrate and isolate 420 milligrams of 4-OH-DPT (I assume it is the freebase) with column chromatography from 18 grams of dry mushrooms (not mycelium, it looks like whoever wrote the abstract made a mistake)



I think the person was discussing DPT, anyway. It doesn't matter how different you think they look; even if they have the same binding site the drugs may have very different effects once they reach your brain; the sidechain can really effect the way the compound is broken down, for example (let alone binding efficiency,) which can have a really large impact on its mental effect. The person who started this thread wanted to know if you could hydroxylate the DPT in vivo to make the more potent form of the drug. I can't answer that question, and I don't think anyone else can, for sure, until some tests are done.

BTW -- tryptamine is the same as psilocin up to the N on the sidechain, except for the phenol group; tryptamine doesn't have a carbonyl on the bezene ring.

I'm sure I've read that psiocybin dephosphorylizes in vivo, but it might be in the liver; I don't know. We'd be more concerned with the enzymes that the fungus produces, however. BTW -- what is the blood-brain barrier, exactly? Noone has ever been able to tell me

WR -- I don't know what you mean by liquid culture -- the mushroom's enzymes (for psiloc-) don't really kick in until it fruits. If you mean establishing maximum potential for yield through a minimal media it might just break the stuff down further. I can see where you're going but I don't think psilocin is really used as source of nutrition -- it's produced on the Shikimic acid pathway which almost always produces byproducts not essential for vitile (and ideally sterile) life functions (except in some parasites where it is.)

Basically mushrooms convert chorismate -> tryptophan -> tryptamine, and most of the downregulation is at the step where tryptophan gets decarboxylized into tryptamine. This is why adding a trypt*amine* should increase potency by a good factor; if it has tryptamine already there is no need for decarboxylation since tryptamine is the finished product of that reaction. If it does get downregulated it should be at a step before the tryptamine. As far as how (and to what extent) it metabolizes other tryptamines, however, I don't know. I would imagine a good chunk of the DPT should get broken down somewhere.