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Indlæg: 08 mar 2005 18:00 
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God pointe, Fanny.

@Astral: Jeg kan simpelthen ikke få dette nye om, at "et stof synteseret i en plante er bedre end et stof synteseret i et laboratorie", og kæde det sammen med dit oprindelige postulat om, at LSD forårsager genforandringer.

Spirituelt formuleret, så føles dine indlæg på mig som store, undulerende klumper af en ufast substans, der uden intern sammenhæng forsvinder ind og ud af eksistens i tid og rum...


Senest rettet af Converge 08 mar 2005 18:16, rettet i alt 1 gang.

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Fenriz skrev:
Hvad er det for noget gas? Jeg vil vædde med at hvis du bliver syg, så vil du da ikke ha medicin som de fæle farmaceuter har lavet, næh nej, du skal da heales af en eller anden eskimo-shaman på DMT-trip..


Såså :lol:
De steder hvor jeg har opserveret psykoaktive urter til healing, har det hver gang været i dok. serier fra Peru, hvor patienten har fejler ondt i maven, feber, stress, bekymring, løbendne næser og den slags..

Hehe.. tror sku heller ikke at huachuma eller ayahausca kan kurrere kræft eller andre voldsomme sygdomme.

Men faktisk så er sygehusene i Peru nogen steder så ringe at sygehusene sender deres patienter ned til shamaner, fordi deres faglige dygtigheder simpelthen ikke når længere, og man overlader derfor patienten til håbet..


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Fanny > LSD er synteseret fra ergotamin, LSA er LysergSyreAmid, det er ikke det samme. Og ingen af delene er lysergsyre, det er nemlig LSA uden amid-gruppen på.

Jensus > Stop med at flame, har vigtigere ting at bruge min tid på end at slette dine posts.


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Indlæg: 08 mar 2005 19:11 
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Stop med at slette mine posts, jeg var igang med at edite, politimester Striks!

Infected Cope skrev:
Men faktisk så er sygehusene i Peru nogen steder så ringe at sygehusene sender deres patienter ned til shamaner, fordi deres faglige dygtigheder simpelthen ikke når længere, og man overlader derfor patienten til håbet..


Or a big fat placebo! It's all the same crap!

Anyway, back on topic, for det første, hvor er den post, hvor jeg kalder Astral for en idiot? Jeg skulle mene, at der er betydeligt flere beviser for mit postulat end for alt det lort den mand lukker ud. :rolleyes:

Citat:
Nu producere hvores krop/væsensled jo også arsenik, men det er mængden som afgøre om det er et lægemiddel eller gift.


Jeg troede ellers du tidligere havde sagt, at LSD pr. defination var ondt, og dårligt for sjælen?

Citat:
Naturen er beslægtet med mennesket igennem mange mange år.
Og kan være lægemidler i de rigtige dosis også ting som Belladonna


Jeg troede at mennesker var en bestandel af naturen?

Citat:
Det er nyere stoffer som LSD ikke fordi de er relativ fremmed-legemer for kroppen.


Relativ fremmed legemer for kroppen? Hmmm. Det lyder godt nok dybt videnskabligt.

Citat:
Jeg forestiller mig jo mennesket som børn af naturen og planterne er hvores slægtninge, faktisk må vi ikke glemme at de faktisk er livsnødvendige for at rense hvores luft, give os føde at spise så derfor er planteriget overordentligt vigtigt


Man kan vel godt sige, at alt levende er relateret i den forstand, at vores genetiske byggemateriale er det samme, og kan udveksles (relativt) frit. Men hvad du vil frem til, forstår jeg ikke.

Citat:
Hvis der nu voksede LSD på træerne så kunne det godt være jeg så anderledes på det :D


Der "vokser" LSD på på korn angrebet af meldrøjesvampen.

Citat:
Måske er det ikke så meget gener man skal være bange for, men man må lige være klar over at der ligger reélle livskræfter bag gener, altså de er bære af livskræfter og de livskræfter er en del af en sammenhængende energi-felt som vi faktisk kan forstyre ved at proppe fremmede stoffer som vi ikke har noget NATURLIGT forhold til...


Hva? Det er utroligt så mange gange du kan ændre din forklaring på noget, og hver gang bliver det mere mystisk, indtil det punkt nåes, hvor folk endnu engang opgiver at diskutere med dig, fordi du er så hjernevasket, og kaster omkring dig med bizare teser, som du ser som virkelighed.

Citat:
Jeg siger ikke hverken det ene eller andet, jeg siger bare at jeg anser det meget sundere at tage DMT end LSD og Meskalin frem for 2C-B og Svampe frem for Research-Chemicals


Du har sgu da sagt at LSD skader generne? Hav nosser til at stå ved dine udsagn, mand.

Citat:
Men lad nu ikke dette male fanden på vægen for der findes nu meget farligere ting som vi bliver udsat for igennem fødekæden (især hvis man ik spiser økologisk).


Og? Du siger at LSD skader generne, nu taler du udenom med noget som er fuldstændigt ligegyldigt for debatten.

Citat:
Men også igennem den medicin som åharmaceut industrien har fremstillet for at helbrede os...

Det er efterhånden gået op for mange at de har langt flere bivirkninger end traditionel urte medicin som faktisk er blevet brugt igennem århundreder uden alvorlige bivirkninger som lægemiddler ofte forårsager på lang sigt


Så kører hetzen igen!

Citat:
Jeg er bare lidt af en sundheds-freak

Men det er vel os bare mig...

Jeg går ind for at informere folk, ikke for at fordømme folk, de må selv bestemme i sidste ende


Det som du betegner som info er sort snak.


Citat:
Nu vil de også begyndre at begrænse hvores adgang til koksttilskud, og give dem i kløerne på den penge griske medicinalindustri

Det betyder i praksis at de i visse lande allerede har sat grænser for C vitamin ikke må overstige 200 mg, det er jo dybt latterligt...


Har de forbudt citroner eller hvad? Der er sindssygt mange fødevarer der indeholder c-vitamin, se selv i bogen "Ascorbinsyre i grønsager og frugt under forarbejdning og tilberedning. Kan du ikke adskille dine propaganda posts fra en ellers seriøs diskussion om dit postulat omkring LSD's skadelige virkninger.


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Ahem... Faktisk så virker Ayahuasca til langt mere end folk umidelbart tror

Her er en artikel fra Maps

Ayahuasca er ikke bare et stof, det er hellig medicin det er en sjælens drik
som healer...

Jeg bruger det spirituel terapeutisk ud fra et holistisk syn og troen på harmoni imellem krop og sjæl

http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v09n2/09222top.html

Citat:
From the Bulletin of the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies
MAPS - Volume 9 Number 2 Summer 1999 - pp. 22-25

Ayahuasca and Cancer: A Postscript

Donald M. Topping, Ph.D.
Professor Emeritus, University of Hawai'i
President, Drug Policy Forum of Hawai'i

After the publication of my article Ayahuasca and Cancer: One Man's Experience in the MAPS Bulletin I received several letters, e-mails and telephone calls from interested persons, some with cancer and others who are healthy but curious. The response took me by surprise, and pushed me to further thoughts about what I believe is happening with me and the role of ayahuasca.

Before sharing these thoughts with MAPS Bulletin readers, I need to state very clearly that I am not proposing ayahuasca as a miracle cure for cancer or anything else. I am simply relating my own story and my sense of what is happening with me. At this point of our experience and knowledge, my story is best taken as another anecdote in the growing body of lore of the vine.

First off, let me say that I am still healthy and that the metastasized cancer appears to be in complete remission. The original diagnosis was in September 1996. As I approach my seventieth year, I can say that I have never felt better, aside from a couple of aching joints here and there, reminders of my rough and tumble days. People frequently comment on how healthy I look and ask what I am doing to look that way.

To some of these people I explain that I have changed my diet (vegetarian), exercise regularly, and have all but stopped drinking alcoholic and caffeinated beverages, and that seems to satisfy them. To others who I think can understand, I attribute my health to the vine. I presume that most readers of MAPS fall into the second category, but probably would like an explanation of how it works. Frankly, so would I. Lacking a concrete explanation, I will try to provide my insights, as provided by the vine as well as discussions I've had with fellow travelers here and there.

Several who have written about ayahuasca (notably Mabit, Grove and Vega[1]) talk about the three domains in which the vine appears to work: psychological, spiritual and organic. My experience confirms this notion, although the distinction between psychological and spiritual is not as clearly defined for me as that between spiritual and organic. Perhaps that is because of my unique approach to the experience, initiated by me in the quest for a restoration of health. Nevertheless, the psychological and spiritual dimensions have played an important, albeit a more subtle role in my recovery.

I will briefly touch on each of these three areas as I experienced them during the past two years, but with primary focus on the organic domain. This is not to minimize the importance of the other two areas, which no doubt play important roles in my well-being.

Psychological changes
The most profound psychological change was noted during my fist experience when I encountered death in the form of a soft, deep, dark void. The clear message was that death is always present, but nothing to be feared. It is there along with all the other forces and elements of nature, nothing exceptional. Death happens. Stating these obvious facts in words sounds trite. But when the vine reveals such things, the impact is far more profound. Going into my first session the thought of imminent death, as predicted by my physician and the data, was a major concern. The vine put that to rest straight away.

As for other psychological impacts, I would include the lesson on the relative importance of things in life. One vivid example came during my fourth or fifth session when I saw a gallery of assorted clocks and watches, dozens if not hundreds of them, moving as though in a shooting gallery, with the minute and hour hands going rapidly in a counter-clockwise direction. I interpreted this as a commentary on my preoccupation with time and the fear of running out of it before I have accomplished my goals.

The vine seemed to be saying, "OK, if that bothers you, let's make time run backwards." The revelation to me was that the notion of time is something that humans view as a commodity to be measured, valued, calculated, saved, wasted, sold, etc., while in ayahuasca reality none of those things matter. Like death, time is always present. Living each day fully means much more than achievement.

Others, including some drug addicts, have reported psychological impacts that have resulted from ingestion of the vine, such as letting go of the ego while allowing light to illuminate the dark corners of the psyche and confronting the demon within. Some have reported this as a difficult experience. Although I have not had this type of psychic encounter, I think I understand the process. There is no place for ego or control when interacting with ayahuasca. There are no dark corners in which demons can hide from the probing of the vine.

The spiritual realm
The spiritual aspects of my experiences with ayahuasca are even more difficult to describe and define. Not having been a spiritual type since my adolescent disillusionment with Christianity, I did not have any expectations. My mission was the restoration of my physical health, which I naively believed to exist independently of the spiritual me. Ayahuasca persuaded me that I was wrong. How did this come to pass?

During ayahuasca-induced visions, I see and hear some astonishing things that have changed my perceptions and understanding of the forces at work in my universe. Plants morphed into animals, and vice-versa. Waves of varicolored lights separated into twisting, undulating ribbons of energy, at times resembling serpentine creatures, switching back and forth from plant to animal form, all the while emitting sounds that I can only describe as a rapid sequence of high-pitched chirps, a bit like the sounds made by dolphins but in a different tone. In the dim shadows of the forest at night, the surrounding plants became robustly alive, gently pulsating and moving toward me as though to join together. While there was nothing that suggested a singular deity, there was an unmistakable presence of a force that permeated the entire experience, linking my body with my inner self, and with the rest of my surroundings: others in the group, the plants, the air, the stars and beyond. Once I tried to follow the upward spiraling ribbons of light to see how far they would lead me into the infinite darkness. I soared upward, as though riding a comet's tail, until the ribbons split off, forming arcs which veered off in a trajectory that would bring them back to begin the cycle again. I began to see this as the energy force that unites everything, the life force, or spirit, of the living and the dead, past, present and future.

It is on the organic level, however, that my experience has been easier to perceive and define for myself. Perhaps this is because I began my relationship with the plant for organic reasons: I was seeking the restoration of my health and protection from further distortions of my cellular structure.

The organic level
My view of cancer, however unscientific, comes largely from my having looked at my own cancerous cells under an electron microscope in the company of a pathologist, coupled with visions seen during sessions with ayahuasca. Quite clearly, small groups of my cells had all bunched up together, as though huddling for warmth or from fear. Why they had done this is the great mystery of cancer. It might be described as a case of cellular disorientation, cells that had gotten out of line, not caused by some invasive external bacterium but something from within.

Equally unscientific is my view of what I needed to correct this cellular deformity and prevent its reoccurrence. I can only describe that need as a realignment of the cells and a correction of the electro-chemical communication system that links them together through the complex and poorly understood functions of DNA, the fundamental communication system of all living organisms.
I can't exactly explain how I have come to this conclusion. I have no background in science, and am only beginning to learn the fundamentals of the neurotransmitter systems, pre-basic chemistry and the entheogenic literature. My little learning could prove to be a dangerous thing, as Alexander Pope once said. Nonetheless, I have formulated rudimentary hypotheses which I will attempt to explain.
What ayahuasca does organically is to restore order and put everything into realignment. It polishes rough edges, illuminates dark corners, hones the senses, and, most importantly, ferrets out all physical (as well as psychic) detritus and purges it. One might compare it with fine-tuning an engine and changing the oil. That is basically how I see ayahuasca acting on me as it teaches my cells how not to get out of whack again.

Plants as teachers
The idea of a plant as teacher is as old as ayahuasca use itself. Most westerners, and scientists in particular, find this concept preposterous because it suggests that the plant is intelligent, has a spirit, and can communicate. I believe that this concept needs to be taken seriously. If, as has been suggested by Narby[2] and others, the DNA is the communication system of cells, then it is not far fetched to suggest that the DNA of the plant is talking to ours after it enters our electro-chemical system, teaching them about balance and alignment. In doing this, the plant serves to restore the symmetry that produces health and well being.

I do not believe that ayahuasca contains chemicals that destroy cancer cells like the chemotherapies do. That is not the way it works. Rather, ayahuasca serves to restore the normal, healthy alignment of cells while it seeks out and purges the aberrant ones that it finds while making its way throughout the body. Let me describe the experiences that have led me to this conclusion.

An ayahuasca session
Beginning maybe ten or fifteen minutes after ingestion, I begin to feel a force flickering throughout my body, growing in intensity to a ripple. These sensations are coupled with points of light flashing intermittently as the energy force makes its rounds throughout my body. They remind me of the little points of light that one sees in the optometrist's office when taking the test for peripheral vision (Visual Field Analyzer).

As the minutes pass, this rippling sensation gets stronger, fe eling almost like I have developed an internal vibrator sending out waves of energy. It feels like the Northern Lights surging in successive waves throughout my body.

In my case, this stage of the experience continues for one to two hours pretty much unchanged before I begin to have any visions, which is considered a very long onset period. What seems to be happening is that the vine is doing its organic work on me. It is exploring every nook and cranny of my entire system, racing around to ensure that everything is in order. Any disorder is corrected, and all of the garbage is swept up to be carried to my visceral dumpster for eventual purging. For me, perhaps because I am looking for organic cleansing, this phase lasts longer than for most other people. With someone like myself who has had metastatic cancer, there may be a lot of cleaning up to do.

When the visions finally begin, they seem to confirm my sensations. Among the first things I see are the curling, spiraling, intertwining, self-propelled ribbons of varicolored transparent light, alternately taking on features of serpents and plants. Sometimes they appear to be just ribbons of light. Inside each of them there is a black double-helix skeleton that seems to propel it. The resemblance to drawings I have seen of DNA is stunning. As the intensity and speed of the visions increase, the ribbons seem to be welling up from the deepest parts of my gut and the furthest reaches of my limbs, climbing, soaring and bursting into brilliant showers of light, like enormous skyrockets. From time to time I both feel and see a powerful upwelling of a brilliant gold mass of energy, coming from deep within me, climaxing in an orgasmic burst into infinity. With such surges of light I feel the internal cleansing, as though by some sort of cosmic Roto-Rooter(R).

I interpret these visions (among many others) as manifestations of what the plant is doing on the organic level. Once inside me, the plant begins doing its work, looking for dark corners to illuminate and malformations to correct, communicating from its cells to mine through the chemical chain provided by our respective DNA. In plain words, the DNA of the vine is talking to mine. The resemblance of these visionary forms to DNA is not from my imagination. I saw them long before I ever read Narby or made the connection with DNA, and was struck by their consistent reoccurrence during every ayahuasca experience. If one could see DNA in full action it would probably look much like what I have tried to describe.

The importance of the purge
Perhaps the most important aspect of the work on the organic level is the purge. As with most others, ayahuasca makes me vomit. Unlike others, however, I generally don't vomit until the visions have faded, maybe four or more hours after ingestion. Again, I interepret the late vomit similarly to the way I interpret the late onset of vision. The vine needs more time with me to do the cleanup work, gathering the detritus and bringing it to the trash bin. When the cleanup job is done, the vine presses the vomit button and the garbage gets dumped. On two occasions I have experienced slight diarrhea, the other type of purging that ayahuasqueros report.

I cannot overstate the importance of the purge. This is the vine's way of eliminating physical as well as psychic toxins that don't belong inside a healthy body or mind. The cleansing effect is manifest, both immediately and for subsequent days or even weeks. Although the act itself is not pleasant, the lingering effects make it all worth while. It strikes me as a rite of purification.

But how does it work?
To accept my interpretation of how ayahuasca works requires a suspension of all previously held beliefs about the differences between the plant and animal worlds. It requires acceptance of the idea that plants can communicate, not only among themselves but with humans as well. We must accept the notion that, as our group leader once put it, "the plant knows what it is doing." These are not easy concepts for westerners to understand or accept. Yet, this is how I, a life-long skeptic and pragmatist, see the plant doing its work. And it has undeniably worked well for me.

Could this be pure fantasy on my part? Could it be that I have constructed from my imagination an account in an effort to explain my experiences? I don't think so. I have attempted to provide an accurate description of my experiences. And I am still convinced that my affair with the vine is largely responsible for my current state of good health.

My experience with ayahuasca and cancer is not unique. I keep learning of other such experiences among people from different parts of the world. Some of these have been reported in the literature, others by word of mouth. There are too many such reports to dismiss them as merely anecdotal. The curanderos of the Amazon have been using ayahuasca for healing purposes for centuries, during which they obviously saw concrete results, not necessarily for cancer but for a host of other diseases. As with other practitioners of folk medicine, they don't pursue modalities of treatment that don't work.

We come to the question: Does ayahuasca really work in treating disease as I and others have claimed? A considerable amount of anecdotal evidence suggests that it does. However, if we westerners (myself excluded), locked into our analytic mind-set, are to believe, we need to see controlled studies on humans with carefully measured data which could be studied and evaluated in a scientific protocol. Such a study should not be difficult to conduct if the obstacles of prohibition can be overcome. One way to do this is to conduct the study in a less repressive country. The other approach is to take on the DEA and defy them to prohibit scientific inquiry the world of entheogenic plants.

It is my fervent hope that such studies will move forward in the near future. There is much to be learned from plants if only we can learn how to tune in.

1 Takiwasi: The Use of Amazonian Shamanism to Rehabilitate Drug Addicts," Jaques Mabit, Rosa Grove and Joaquin Vega, in Yearbook of Cross-Cultural Medicine and Psychotherapy, (1995), ed. By Michael Winkelman and Walter Andritzky.
2 Narby, Jeremy (1998) The Cosmic Serpent: DNA and the Origins of Knowledge, New York, Penguin Putnam, Inc.

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helt ærligt astral.. det kan du ikke mene! Jeg ville gerne men har simpelthen ikke tid til at skulle læse alt det der.. Synes tit du poster vildt lange beskeder.. :?


Senest rettet af Infected Cope aka. Lila 08 mar 2005 19:52, rettet i alt 1 gang.

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Jeg behøver vidst ikke at nedværdige mig til at svare på Jensus indlæg :P

Andet end sige at jeg har snakket om forandringer (midlertidige eller ej, det har jeg ikke nærmere defineret)

Jeg har antydet at det måske kunne føre til skader, ja, men jeg har ikke sagt at DET gør det... Du har vidst misforstået mit indlæg :)

Desuden så kan jeg se at du har et svagt punkt for din ynglings branche, du vil måske blive en god pharmaceut en dag, jeg vil blot vælge et mere holistisk livs-syn, alt respekt hvis du er materialist, dem skal der også være plads til, men gør det ikke til almen fakta at alt propaganda fra medicinalindustrien og i det hele taget den corporative elite blot kan komme og affeje årtusinders viden om naturens helbredende kræfter, for det kan de ikke, der er nogen som har en mere naturvenlig og holistisk spirituel holdning, at der findes mennesker hvis blod kommer i kog over lidt mere spirituel og natur-poetisk livssyn det må være deres problem, det er ærgeligt at de ikke blot kan være glade over at vi alle har forskellige syn på livet...

Det fremmer ikke ligefrem debatten at være nedladende over for andre holdninger

Spiritualitet er kommet for at blive, materialismen vil blive overtaget af en mere holistisk synsvinkel, materialismen er god nok, til at forklare det mineralske og kemiske, men der skal en mere kunstnerisk og spirituel opfattelse, som erkender sjælen som kilden til de spirituelle erfaringer som vi kan drage udfra hvores jegs mulighed for at transcendere udover hvores egne små begrænsninger og frustrationer og opleve os som ét med hele verden

Mvh Astral.


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Astral, istedet for at vi diskuterer en masse teori og fremviser kilometerlange tekster, omhandlende andres erfaringer med diverse entheogener, var det så ikke en ide, om vi diskuterede vores egne erfaringer istedet? Vi er trods alt selv udforskere af disse fantastiske nøgler til ændret bevidsthedsopfattelse, og derfor synes jeg det er mere relevant at beskrive hvad vi føler på egen krop og sind.
- som en klog psykonaut herinde engang sagde (men tråden blev slettet pga bicherier):

Mindre læsning,
mere lamning,
-det er sådan vi gør det her! :wink:

Omskrevet til: At tale ud fra egne erfaringer er langt mere værd, end at snakke teoretisk ud fra erfaringer, som andre har gjort sig.

Derfor vil jeg hellere høre, hvad dine egne erfaringer med DMT kontra LSD er? Har du intaget de to substander, og hvad oplevede du?

Hilsen Fanny

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Mere rugbrød - mindre LSD! - Velmendende råd til psykedelisk ekstremsportspiller


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Nå, nu er vi vist nået til sagens kerne.

Et fint nok emne; men jeg vil måske argumentere for, at tråden nu hører til i filosofisk forum. Og måske fortjener et andet navn, fx. "Naturlig Ayahuasca frem for Syntetisk LSD?", da det ikke har nogetsomhelst med gener, eller andet håndgribeligt at gøre.


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Well, jeg har ikke noget imod at læse lange rapporter og kilder, men sidst Astral fremlagde en meterlang tekst som bevis og jeg rent faktisk læste den, viste det sig at der stod 3 linier om det væsentlige for diskussionen, og resten var ligegyldigt. Og jeg tror faktisk at jeg dengang bedte om at du klippede det vigtige ud, prøv lige at gøre det en anden gang. Tak.


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HEEEETZ !!!

Jeg mener at Shulgin har udtalt, at med alle de alkaloider der er i Calviceps-svampene, er det ikke usandsynligt at LSD en dag vil blive fundet som et naturligt alkaloid - men til den tid skifter du vel mening! :roll:

Tag dit fucking Ayahuasca, flyt til Peru og fri os for dit tågesnak!


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LSD er så skrøbeligt og meget energikrævende at fremstille for en plante, men det kunne naturligvis være et godt forsvarsmiddel pga. den meget høje potens.


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Dextrose skrev:
HEEEETZ !!!

Jeg mener at Shulgin har udtalt, at med alle de alkaloider der er i Calviceps-svampene, er det ikke usandsynligt at LSD en dag vil blive fundet som et naturligt alkaloid - men til den tid skifter du vel mening! :roll:

Tag dit fucking Ayahuasca, flyt til Peru og fri os for dit tågesnak!


Styr dit trip ;)

Nu er der altså en del forskel også på et koncentrat og en plante, men indtil videre så er det ikke mere and gisninger.

Jeg forstår ikke alt postyret, jeg går ind for fuld lovliggørelse af LSD og alle andre stoffer som folk kan finde på at æde, på den måde finder vi mere ud af de enkelte stoffer fordi at folk så prøver dem på sig selv, hvis det er det som de vil....

Desuden så ligger Peru også i mine planer ;)

Nu ikke så sur fordi jeg er lidt kritisk over for dit ynglings-substans

Hvad ville videnskaben være uden en kritisk sans?

Jeg kan godt komme med nogen flere kilder, hvis du ikke synes mine kilder har været gode nok, men du må prøve at være lidt mere åben for andre meninger imens, det gør at man lære mere.

Det er jo lidt som hvis en kixeklapper blev pissesur hvis man fortalte at MDMA muligvis kunne have langtidsbivirkninger....

Prøv nu at være lidt videnskabelig og knap så emotionel

Prøv noget Ayahuasca og døm så selv om den kvalitative virkning, før du udtaler dig som du gør

Så kan vi jo snakke om det, uden at du behøver blive så fornærmet :)

MVh Astral


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Indlæg: 09 mar 2005 16:20 
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Prøv nu at være lidt videnskabelig og knap så emotionel


og det kommer fra DIG?


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Indlæg: 09 mar 2005 16:23 
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Tilmeldt: 01 sep 2002 01:01
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Treasure skrev:
(...) og meget energikrævende at fremstille for en plante (...)


Hvad bygger du det på?


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Indlæg: 09 mar 2005 17:03 
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Insane psychedelia user!

Tilmeldt: 05 sep 2003 01:01
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AoD skrev:
Treasure skrev:
(...) og meget energikrævende at fremstille for en plante (...)


Hvad bygger du det på?


At det er et stort molekyle og derfor sandsynligvis er længe undervejs. Så hvis man sætter skrøbelighed op mod den mængde energi det kræver, så tror jeg ikke det kan betale sig i længden - med mindre altså at det bliver fremstillet til et særligt formål.


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Indlæg: 09 mar 2005 17:54 
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Jeg forstår ikke alt postyret, jeg går ind for [totalt emneskift...]
Astral, årsagen til alt postyret er, at du postulerer konsekvenser ved LSD. IE, virkelige konsekvenser. Du påstår, at der er grundlag for, at disse findes. Når du bedes om at bakke dine postulater op, med andet end løs tågesnak, så snakker du udenom med endnu mere løs tågesnak, og yderligere ufunderede postulater. Altimens du belemrer andre for deres usaglighed.

Hvis du ikke gider sætte dig ind i noget, så burde du lade være med at gøre dig postulater omkring det! :x


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Indlæg: 09 mar 2005 19:02 
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Tilmeldt: 01 sep 2002 01:01
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Treasure skrev:
AoD skrev:
Treasure skrev:
(...) og meget energikrævende at fremstille for en plante (...)


Hvad bygger du det på?


At det er et stort molekyle og derfor sandsynligvis er længe undervejs. Så hvis man sætter skrøbelighed op mod den mængde energi det kræver, så tror jeg ikke det kan betale sig i længden - med mindre altså at det bliver fremstillet til et særligt formål.


Svampe fremstiller kæmpe proteiner - jeg kan ikke se, hvorfor størrelse skulle være et problem. Og lige som THC hjælper cannabis med ikke at tørre ud - så hjælper LSD (hvis det overhovedet bliver dannet i en svamp) sikkert også med noget.


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Indlæg: 09 mar 2005 19:42 
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Ja, både cannabinolerne, salvinorinerne og lysergsyre-derivaterne er nogle større basser.


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Indlæg: 09 mar 2005 21:41 
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Insane psychedelia user!

Tilmeldt: 05 sep 2003 01:01
Indlæg: 2001
AoD skrev:
Treasure skrev:
AoD skrev:
Treasure skrev:
(...) og meget energikrævende at fremstille for en plante (...)


Hvad bygger du det på?


At det er et stort molekyle og derfor sandsynligvis er længe undervejs. Så hvis man sætter skrøbelighed op mod den mængde energi det kræver, så tror jeg ikke det kan betale sig i længden - med mindre altså at det bliver fremstillet til et særligt formål.


Svampe fremstiller kæmpe proteiner - jeg kan ikke se, hvorfor størrelse skulle være et problem. Og lige som THC hjælper cannabis med ikke at tørre ud - så hjælper LSD (hvis det overhovedet bliver dannet i en svamp) sikkert også med noget.


Nu er THC dog en smule mere hårdfør hvad forhold angår - der er LSD en del mere skrøbeligt. Og at fremstille proteiner kan ikke sidestilles med andre mere specialiserede forbindelser, da proteinsyntesen jo, som bekendt, er en integreret del i fundamentet for plante- svampe- og dyrerigenes opretholdelse/eksistens. Jeg ved ikke helt hvilke forhold, der er nødvendige for at en plante skulle kunne fremstille LSD, men de er højst sandsynlige ret specifikke. Men da LSD har så høj potens, behøver planten/svampen ikke producere så meget af det, for at det giver en ønsket effekt evt. som forsvar eller noget i den stil, så jeg tror da ikke det er umuligt at det findes - bare ret usandsynligt.


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